ATTN: Dave or other ruling authorities (MED)

[diesoftly]

Hello,

I'm not sure if this information will result in any change. I just want to point out some things regarding the minimum engagement distances and how they are unfair to the airsoft sniper.

First off, everything I'm going to be saying is based on math. There is an article I have found that has some very interesting information regarding MED's and impact rating and diferent distances.

Let us say we want to limit the impact rating on an AEG to 1J.

at < 360 FPS that would be 15 feet.

At 400 that jumps all the way to 30 feet.

500 FPS (here is where we get the big difference) currently 500 fps = 100ft med... If rules would be equal, that would put the MED to only 60 feet to have an actual equal impact MED. To where, at 60 feet, you're hitting with the same force as someone shooting someone at 30 feet with 400 fps.

Here is the source: mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/06-c-01.htm

Here is a very educational tid bit of information: mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/index.htm

Again, I'm not trying to critisize the way the field is run or administrated. I am simply pointing out a SAFE and FAIR solution to MED's. Because honestly, limiting a sniper to 100 FT med but restricting his FPS to 500 is unfair.

This is just my .2 grams. Again, I am by no means wanting to start anything. Just want to inform and hopefully improve the community.

A TRUE 100 Foot MED would equate to a 700 FPS airsoft gun. To elaborate... In order to hit someone with the same force at 100 feet as a 400 fps gun hits at 30 feet, you would have to be shooting 700 fps.

Again, simply to be fair, I would request either A) MED is shortened, or B) Max fps is increased.

I cannot express enough that I am not trying to degrade or critisize the way the field is ran, I am simply pointing out how things could be even more fair than they already are.


Thank you very much for reading.

[Joker]

I'm not a decision making entity nor anyone particularly important on the field, but I'd like to chime in on this issue. I believe that the FPS and MED limits on the field are directly influenced by two factors: Safety, and Legal Liability. First and foremost is safety: at what FPS and at what distance can a BB potentially do damage to the players? By damage, I mean serious physical harm such as injuries that break the skin or chip a tooth. Second is legal liability: in the event that player injury does occur, how can the field owner show that he did all due diligence to prevent injury from happening and that the injury resulted in the player knowingly violating safety rules. The quickest way an airsoft field can be shut down is because of legal issues. If a player gets hurt, sues the field, and wins, the field will likely close due to punitive damages to the owner and the field's insurance being dropped. It is therefore in the best interest of the field's owner to ensure that injuries never happen in the first place.

Now the safety rules, which include limits on FPS and MED, are only half of the fight to prevent injuries. The second half is having a wide safety margin. No one brings a tape measure onto the field and measures the distance before they take a shot. In the heat of things, can you really tell if someone is 100 feet away or just 90? Did you just fire at 500fps, or 515? However, if you hit someone at 90 feet or at 515 fps, there is very little risk of injury. This is because he limits are there with a wide safety margin to ensure that it would take a blatant violation of them for injury to occur.

Finally, the last portion lies within the realm of perception. The insurance types most likely do not play airsoft nor know anything about the sport. However, if you say that you limit most guns to 400 fps, but also allow guns that shoot almost twice that power, an uninitiated individual would question the safety of the higher powered gun. Add to the mix the fact that someone has gotten hurt with said gun and the individual's main concern is to minimize the amount they have to give money back. The insurance companies are not on our side; rather they are a necessary evil required by law to run an airsoft field.

TL;DR Field limits are there to keep people safe and to keep the insurance companies happy. The field limits have been proven to work while making it possible for people to still use a variety of gun models, so there is very little to be gained by tweaking them.

[shadowhawk]

I personally think the biggest reason for the fps limits, is because if someone pops around a corner and scares you, you might shoot out of instinct without thinking. now if you had a gun shooting at 700, 900, maybe even 1000 fps, set for a 200 ft. med, it would do serious damage.

[Rabit TFS]

1000 fps could kill someone. Just sayin lol.

[dave OC-6]

thank you D.S. for your input
here is the issue
1. the AS rules have to be simple
2. the American standard for weights and mesurements sets the FPS chart, who is that? Crossman.
3. the insurance cos use the chart and so is industry standard
4. the rules around the world are getting stricter not easing. there are people getting hurt playing at fields that are easing the rules.
5. players are making it harder for field owners using guns with new tec that can change the FPS on the fly. 2 pt gear boxes, polorstars, and quick change springs are making it harder for field owners to police there fields.

so that's why we have the 400fps with .20 rule, and yes as the field owner I can do anything I want, my primary responsibility is to all the players safety. I did 4 combat tours without having any soldier under me getting hurt. im not going to have a player hurt in simulated combat if I can help it.
thanks
dave

[nbustarhymes]

Very well worded Joker. Exactly what I was gonna say.

[shadowhawk]

May 29, 2013 19:34:33 GMT -5 Rabit TFS said:

1000 fps could kill someone. Just sayin lol.

that's why you cant just bump the fps and the med. if you shoot to close, you will hurt someone.

[diesoftly]

I understand that safety is the main concern. I have not done as many tours as you, but I have been overseas as an MP. My main point is... essentially this: If the MED for an 'assualt' type class is 20 feet, with ZERO margin for error, why is a 'sniper' set up all the way out to 100 feet with 40 feet of room for error?

I'm simply trying to understand the ruling more. Again, I'm not trying to critisize anything or anyone. Simply trying to clarify.

I appreciate everyones responses and your input.

Also, I did read everything stated, it just doesn't add up to me. Again, I understand that it doesn't need to add up or make sense to me (again, I was a soldier, so I know how that goes the 'just do what you're told and don't ask questions' route) I'd just like to try and understand it as much as possible. Since having stated at 400 fps a .2-.3 BB will impact with 1J of force at 30 feet. at 500 FPS to impact with the same (1j) amount of force it would be 60 feet. Is the additional 40 feet literally just a 'saftey net'?

[Joker]

Okay, I think I found the problem here. You are hyperfocusing on the physics side of things. So let me clear this up real quick.

Yes, the energy of a bb fired at 400fps will degrade less over a distance of 20 feet than that of a bb fired at 500fps over a distance of 100 feet. Good job. Have a cookie.

Here's the thing you're missing: we already know that. So given that information, why would the field have the limits that they do?

Answer: It's not about Dave's whims. Its about the whims of the insurance companies. Like I said before, these guys no almost nothing about airsoft and are definitely not our friends. The rules are in place so that if something DOES happen, the field has it's ass covered legally and provides no opportunity for the powers that be to shut the field down. You like doing research, apparently, so here's a homework assignment. In the past 5 years, find out how many airsoft fields have had to shut down. On top of that, find out how many were due to legal or financial issues.

The limits are there to protect the field as much as the players. End of story.

[diesoftly]

That's what I figured, I just wanted to clear things up. So it is, indeed... A safety net to insure the safety of the faucility as well as the player. Understanding that there is a possibility that someone breaks the engagement rules therefor the room for error. Instead of 'you break the MED and someone gets hurt' it's 'you break the med and you get a reprimand'.

I understand now.

You have addressed and answered my question accordingly. Yes, I was focusing on the physics side of things.

Thank you very much.